Future Proofing Your Customer Engagement Stack

Kailey Raymond: I have Chad hacker here with me today, he is the VP of Consumer and Digital Marketing for the US aesthetics division at AbbVie. He has a wealth of experience across digital marketing, advertising operations, client management, PR, to name a few, I'm really excited to chat with him about all things aesthetics today. Chad, welcome to the show.

Chad Hacker: Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be on and I love your podcast, so I'm excited to see what we can chat about today.

Kailey Raymond: Much appreciated. Always great to chat with a fan Chad. [chuckle] I'm curious, I like to kinda get to know folks a little bit better in terms of how they got to where they are today, as I understand it, you were at Allergan for part of the merger with AbbVie. I wanna hear in your own words about your career journey and how you got to be where you are today at AbbVie.

Chad Hacker: That's an interesting question, and funny timing, because I had a team off-site about a month ago, and the theme of the team off-site was inspiration, and I was sort of racking my brain like what am I gonna tell this room full of 100 people of... How am I going to inspire them, I actually decided to tell them the journey of how I ended up on that stage, and I entitled The Journey whispers of the Universe, and I'll give you the condensed version, but back in 2010, my husband and I lived in Denver, and I was doing marketing for a restaurant and hotel group, local group there, he was working for an event planning company, so we traveled in similar circles, my hotel's had event space and restaurants, and so we belonged to a few different professional groups together and one morning, a normal morning like any other morning, we're getting ready to go to work, and he mentions that he's having lunch with colleague of ours named Gena Ravana, I'm gonna say Gina's name because she probably has no idea the impact that she's had on my life.

Chad Hacker: And it was a normal work day. We get home. We're making dinner. As couples tend to do. You're chit-chatting about your day. And he mentioned the lunch and Gina is doing well. And he said that she was making some extra money at a start-up in the Boulder area, and he said it so nonchalantly that it could have come in one year and out the other, but it resonated with me and I was like, Well, wait a minute, I wanna make extra money. Long story short, I did everything that I could to train myself in search engine marketing, it was a start-up, a crowd-funded crowd-sourced marketplace, and there came a time when the leadership at this startup had offered me a job, and I had a competing job at a national food brand, and I had to make a decision. Do I wanna do food marketing for the rest of my life, or do I wanna take a chance? And I took that chance and that started my career in tech start-ups, and I worked at a few different tech start-ups in the Denver, Boulder area, and then one of my old bosses had relocated to the bay, reached out to me, had a job that he thought I might be interested in.

Chad Hacker: And my husband, we packed up the house, the two dogs, and we relocated to the Bay, and one of the first things that I was tasked with when I was working at IAC was to acquire a company called Patients Guide. And the CEO of Patients Guide is a gentleman by the name of Jason Gilmore, who is now the senior vice president of Allergan Aesthetics here. So that's how we met, we became fast friends, and we were looking for ways to sort of work together again, and we both landed here in Allergan Aesthetics.

Kailey Raymond: That's amazing. It all starts with a conversation over dinner prepping that meal, and Gina or girl mentioned the inspiration for transferring over into the fast-paced land of tech start-ups. Really cool, I love that.

Chad Hacker: It's a really important lesson that I try to teach my team about these sort of whispers of the universe. And I'll give you another example that I love telling this story is one of our engineers, his name is Robbie, was eating a burrito one day. And it was National Burrito Day. And he very casually said, I think there should be a national BOTOX Cosmetic Day, and that gave birth to our very first National BOTOX Cosmetic day in 2019, and it has become this cultural phenomenon, this will be year five in November, and we literally have hundreds of thousands of consumers that line up to take advantage of whatever offer or special we're doing for National BOTOX Cosmetic Day, and it all happened because one dude was eating a burrito on National Burrito Day and made a random comment. So those whispers can turn into extraordinary things.

Kailey Raymond: You know I smell a BOTOX and burritos party, I feel like the ladies of selling Sunset might not partake in the burrito part, but maybe the BOTOX, I think they did have a BOTOX party one time, which is a great idea. I love it. I would love to dig a little bit deeper for folks that might not be as familiar with the portfolio of aesthetic brands that you lead, so we've mentioned BOTOX cosmetics. Can you share a little bit more about that portfolio that you're leading?

Chad Hacker: Absolutely, So BOTOX Cosmetic, it's the mothership, it is the brand that built the entire industry. In fact, we just celebrated our 20 year anniversary for BOTOX Cosmetic last year, so been around for a while. In addition to BOTOX Cosmetic, we have Juvederm collection of fillers. We have seven different skews for different areas of the face, depending on what you're trying to achieve with your look, we have a body contouring side to the business that include school sculpting and cool tone, so you can freeze away fat and you can tone certain areas of your body, we also have a medical grade skin care line that is skin medical, and people who use it swear by it, I am one of those people. It is amazing products. So we've really got a whole portfolio for whichever area of the body you want to address, and however you know you wanna present yourself to the world, we've got solutions for you.

Kailey Raymond: That's great, and I imagine that you're building customer relationships with folks across multiple different brands, and one of the things that I'm curious to learn about, your role in leading consumer and digital marketing is what are some of the programs, where do you play in the Customer Engagement journey?

Chad Hacker: So first and foremost, I think I would say that we're a digital first company, so a lot of the investment that we make is really in digital platforms, we've got great partnerships with Google and with Meta and The Trade Desk and so on. But a lot of what we focus on in terms of the customer journey is all data-driven, so the division I work for is Allergan data labs. Data is in the name. And having a CDP is really important, so we use Segment as our CDP, and we track consumer behavior, we understand traits, profiles, treatment journeys, frequency, cross-selling, and there's really four levers that we think about in terms of running the business using the data. First and foremost is acquisition, we wanna grow the overall aesthetic piece, number two is cross-selling, so we know that if people are coming in and they typically come in through BOTOX Cosmetic, we do want to move them through the portfolio and get them using Juvederm or maybe one of our body contouring products. The third is frequency. So BOTOX, according to our label, you can get every three months, we have a lot of people that get BOTOX Cosmetic maybe once a year or maybe twice a year so we think about frequency.

Chad Hacker: And the last thing that we really focus on is retention, and there are a lot of what we call one and dones that come and try BOTOX cosmetic and for whatever reason, don't come back and we want them to come back. So those are the different ways that we use the data from segment to execute different marketing strategies, and then we also have in-person activations with different brands, there's a lot of crossover that our patients have with music, for example. So we were a sponsor of Stage Coach, we've done stuff with Bottle Rog. We're doing a really interesting one this year, and I'm very interested to see how it turns out, but we're doing a partnership with F1 in Vegas, so F1 is this worldwide phenomenon, I think it's just really starting to catch on here in the States, but I'm excited to see how that activation does as well.

Kailey Raymond: Incredible, I'm excited to hear more about that after the fact. We'll have to catch up when that happens, what's really interesting to me is what I'm hearing, a lot of what you were talking about with how you're using some of the data that you're collecting and cleaning and activating through segment. It really has to do with a B2C relationship. And I think in particular, and please tell me about this market, but a lot of this typically might have been sold through a provider, somebody that's a healthcare physician, etcetera, and so your relationship seems to be expanding from B2B to B2C, is that accurate?

Chad Hacker: It's accurate and I would say we are in a B2B2C space, we really feel as the market leader, it is our responsibility to grow the market, to educate consumers, to answer questions that they have to help them overcome barriers, but we don't provide treatments. We create the product. So I have a saying with my team and it's... Butts in seats, that's what our job is, our job is to drive consumers into our practices to be treated by a healthcare professional, but we have the responsibility of actually growing the overall market.

Kailey Raymond: I love the term, I've used it often, having worked in field marketing, perhaps your husband has used that term as well, being an event marketing professional [laughter] That's great. One of the things that I think is... We're talking about right now is a trend, which is the consumerization of the healthcare market in general, which aesthetics is a part of. So I'm wondering, beyond that, we're talking about the transformation that your team has gone through in terms of really growing the consumer base, getting those butts in seats, are there any other macro trends that you're looking at as it relates to consumer experience and aesthetics?

Chad Hacker: I think one of the macro trends that is posing a challenge, not only for me and my team, but I think for a lot of marketers is this constant changes in the data privacy landscape, a lot of the data signals that we traditionally would have relied on coming from the Google or the Facebook, or the Instagrams of the world are changing, we're starting to see fragmented privacy laws by state, and so there's a lot of ways that I'm sort of thinking about future-proofing the business, like how do we take our first party data, how do we enrich it? How do we make sure that we've got a plan so that as these data signals continue to lessen from these platforms, that we can still do effective marketing reaching the right people at the right time on the right platform, but it certainly is getting harder and harder and it does seem that the FTC at least has their sight set on healthcare for sure as it comes to consumer privacy, rightfully so.

Kailey Raymond: 100%. And I think one of the things that is kind of underlying this narrative of privacy is, trust, I mean having transitioned into tech and working in marketing for a while, I think that you know more than most about the ideas around trust and making sure that you can build those authentic customer relationships that are transparent, here's what I know about you. Here's how I'm gonna use that information. It's all co-share. And so that's something that we've seen across every industry, of course.

Chad Hacker: It's interesting, it does vary by generation based on the research that we've done and market research, there is this sort of Gen Z sort of younger millennial who really have this idea, the ship is sailed, I've grown up on devices my whole life, they know my data, and then as you get into maybe sort of older millennial Gen X, boomers, there's a much bigger concern around what data is out there? What do they know about me? And I think there's always going to be a transfer of value, so if people are going to give you information and trust that you're going to use that in a responsible way, you have to then as a brand or as a company, do so and make sure that you are transferring that value in a meaningful way that builds loyalty with your consumer base.

Kailey Raymond: That's alright, just the idea of value exchange, making sure that at every step away, if you're asking for something, you're delivering something in return, building a loyalty program might be an example of one of those value exchanges, you give me your email and your information, and I'm gonna give you a little bit of a perk, we'll talk about that later, 'cause I'm very curious to hear about your loyalty program, but I wanna talk about the elephant in the room right now, we just talked about trust, AI has a big topic of conversation right now, and so I'm curious to hear your take and where AbbVie is using, if you are or thinking about using AI in your customer journey is in your strategies for marketing.

Chad Hacker: It is a hot topic for sure, not only within AbbVie and Allergan Aesthetics, but across the board, whether you're talking about other consumer-driven brands, whether you're talking about digital platforms, and we have had various different meetings and conversations about how we might want to think about using AI one of them would be the opportunity for consumers to use AI to have a visual view of what they might look like if they use one of our products, so there's a reasonable concern that if you've never used BOTOX cosmetic or one of our Juvederm fillers, you might have a concern of how am I gonna look, Am I gonna look natural? And so you think there's a place for AI to sit in that space and help those consumers to overcome and know what to expect, you also, as the market leader, we have the largest training program in the aesthetic space. It's Allergan Medical Institute, and we've started to think through, how do we use AI when it comes to training? So traditional training has historically been, we fly doctors out to a various location and healthcare professionals, and we're also teaching them hands-on, how can we use AI to make sure that we've got the best trained healthcare professionals that are delivering the best results.

Chad Hacker: So those are two of the ways, at least that we're thinking about adopting it internally, I also think that you're going to see a lot more development of AI assisted targeting, if you will, on digital platforms, as we've talked about with some of the privacy laws. So and I know Google is one of the companies at the forefront of that, and I interestingly had a conversation with them yesterday, and I'm excited to see what they do, they've already introduced AI into their search capabilities, and we've seen a drastic improvement in our overall performance, so we think about online video or programmatic display etcetera, I think you'll see AI driving those platforms as well.

Kailey Raymond: So interesting, and I think the personalization, the level, the really one-to-one tailoring that you'll be able to do using a lot of generative AI, it's gonna be really interesting.

Kailey Raymond: We're talking about a lot of this is quite hard to do, we're trying to build trust with consumers, but we're trying to market to them in really personalized ways, there's an obvious tension between those two things. I'm wondering if you have any insight into what your biggest challenge was on your road to building a fulfilling customer engagement journey.

Chad Hacker: It's a great question. And when I think about data, I think about it in two ways. There's the buy side data and then the sell side data. When I think about the buy side data, that's really where we're thinking about what digital marketing strategies, deployments, campaigns that we're doing, and what data are we capturing from that? What audience segment, what ad placement, what creative, what message, all of those things. And then when somebody does join our loyalty program, when they join Allē, now I call that the sell side data. So now we've got them into our system and we know when they're getting treated and what they're earning points on and where they live and all of those things. And I think the biggest challenge that we've been trying to figure out over the past couple of years is how do you marry the buy side and the sell side data.

Chad Hacker: 'Cause that's the holy grail right there is if you know all of the data points that you are currently still able to get from digital platforms, but even beyond that. The audience segmentation that you're targeting, the what creative is resonating better, what messaging and sort of pass those, whether it be through UTM parameters or some other way into a database that then marries it to the sell side, I think then you can get really smart around who is our highest value customer and where are they coming from and how do we find more of them? And I also think that you can at times have analysis paralysis. There's so much data and so many ways to slice and dice the data that I think you have to have meaningful intent around how you're trying to use that data.

Kailey Raymond: I think that's one of the biggest things that frankly especially when folks are starting off, they kind of miss 'cause it's just like, Yes, I'm gonna collect all of the data [laughter] Sure, okay, that might be a really expensive thing for you to do also. But I think having a real use case or use cases in mind to really understand what you wanna do with said data and how you wanna analyze that data is always a great place to start. I like this idea of the buy and the sell side and I'm wondering if you have a definition of what you might say is good data.

Chad Hacker: There's a lot of different ways to think about good data. It starts with a strong data infrastructure. How is the data being passed? But it can be also as simple as like, what are your naming conventions? Do you have the right naming conventions so that the data is coming in in a clean way? I remember back five years ago when we started, we had lots of conversations around what our naming conventions were gonna be and how we were gonna use them and make sure that they were being passed into to GA and into Segment the right way, you know? But ultimately I think everyone wants data that is actionable. And that sort of goes back to your point of what is the intent of collecting the data? And once you know that, then you can collect the good data that's going to help you achieve those sort of business goals.

Kailey Raymond: Let's talk about some of those activations. So you've mentioned Allē, which is your loyalty program. Would love to hear a little bit more about that and some of the kind of programs that you're running in particular to drive that loyalty with that data.

Chad Hacker: First party data is always gonna be king. And then we have about six million user records in our Allē database. And it was interesting when I started back five years ago, most of the marketing that was being done in Allergan Aesthetics had been outsourced to the various agencies of the world. And I came in and I'm like, "We have a database of six million people and we're not using this like this is a gold mine." And so, obviously using our Allē data has been critical in terms of some of those key levers that we talked about of taking high profile patients and building lookalike models and trying to do that or targeting consumers that are using BOTOX Cosmetic with JUVEDERM Messaging. But at the end of the day, Allē is a loyalty platform. So consumers earn points on their treatments that they can use towards future treatments.

Chad Hacker: Where we're really trying to take Allē is to make it a much more meaningful app experience for consumers. So we wanna give them reasons to use the app beyond just when I'm getting treated and how many points do I have. And so we have a lot of content in there, beauty driven content or educational content or lifestyle content. And it's not always just about aesthetics. There could be fashion information in there or latest trends that we're seeing in makeup or all sorts of things to really have a wealth of information that consumers can have access to if they have questions and it's actually working, people are using the app more than just, when they're at their provider office and opening it up and redeeming their points or checking how many points they have. I think we'll continue to see more development on the Allē side, both on the consumer side as well as the provider side. There's lots of different features and technology and products that we're developing to help our providers run their businesses better. And first and foremost, this may sound odd as an aesthetics company, but we're a tech-driven company. We use technology to improve the lives of our patients as well as the lives of our healthcare providers.

Kailey Raymond: I'm fascinated by one, and it was kind of an off comment, but I wanna dig into this. You said when they're opening their apps at their healthcare providers, are you using information around geolocation as well to do push notifications at certain times?

Chad Hacker: We do indeed. It's interesting, a lot of people are sort of trying to find that connection between digital exposure and in-person foot traffic. We actually partnered with Foursquare to help us develop our strategy for tracking patients that were going into practices. And it's interesting when you think about Foursquare however many years ago and you're checking into Burger King to be the king of whatever, what Foursquare probably didn't know at the time was that they were going to get this wealth of knowledge and they pivoted there entire business model and now we use them as a geolocation to be able to know when consumers are near a practice, when they're walking into a practice and what we know about those consumers. If we know they're Botox users, we might push them a Juvederm message and say, "Talk to your provider about Juvederm." We're definitely leveraging that as part of our marketing strategy.

Kailey Raymond: Incredibly cool. And is that text, is that in-app notification?

Chad Hacker: All of the above. We have SMS and in-app. Both of those are relatively new features for the app and so we're measuring which ones are more effective. And also I think there is a communication preference that varies by generation as well. The younger generation, they don't wanna talk to you, they don't wanna look at an email, they just wanna text. Whereas people that maybe are a little bit older prefer other ways of communication. So we're sort of measuring what is the best, most effective way to communicate to the patient depending on what we know about them.

Kailey Raymond: So interesting, channel of choice dependent upon your previous behavior, perhaps some of the information that you have about demographic data, combining it with that, very cool. Really, I think what you're describing with the Allē program too, with a lot of the additional kind of content that you're building is you're building a community. It's not necessarily just a loyalty program that you're building. You're really building a community of folks and especially if you're bringing in educational content, you're nurturing them along this journey and you're providing new ideas around some of the other products that might be helpful for them. You just mentioned geolocation as kind of one of what I would describe as a key moment in a customer journey. You know that it's gonna be more compelling at that exact time to send somebody a message. Are there any other places, timelines or pockets or opportunity that you've identified within your base or your audiences that you're building programs off the back of?

Chad Hacker: There is one of the products that we developed and deployed probably a year ago is what we call Flash. And it's actually a very simple program, but it has been wildly effective. So when a consumer walks into a practice, typically when they're using their Allē app, they're doing that at the checkout. They're gonna redeem their points and get their discounts or whatever. We wanted to create a feature where consumers could check in. And so when you walk into a provider office, there is a QR code that you can scan and we immediately ping the database and go, what do we know about this person? How often do they treat? What products have they been treating on? And we immediately return, maybe a message, maybe an offer, maybe something. And one of the things that is an interesting phenomenon within the aesthetic space is providers don't want to create a salesy experience. So if you're coming in for a Botox cosmetic, they don't want to bring up Juvederm. But if we can get in the middle of that and deliver a message that then prompts the consumer to ask the provider about Juvederm, we've seen that be just wildly successful in creating dual usage because ultimately we want full facial treatment analysis and treatment outcomes.

Kailey Raymond: That's really, really cool and I'm sure your providers are happy, your customers are happy, it's a win-win situation that you're developing by doing that. And it's really showing omnichannel, you are having both in-person experiences, then you figured out a way to make sure that you're still having that digital touchpoint, contributing to those customer profiles, enriching that with more information about how people are actually behaving. Brilliant. I love that example.

Chad Hacker: I mean, I can't believe I'm sharing this data, but we have over a 50% conversion rate when we deliver a Flash offer, which in the digital space is like unheard of. So we'll continue to develop more and more opportunities to, I wouldn't say put ourselves in between the healthcare provider and the patient, but to make sure that we're delivering those key messages when they're most likely to act on them.

Kailey Raymond: That's unbelievable. That is an astounding metric. So we talked about, cross-sell a little bit. We've talked about the loyalty program in general. Are there any other programs or campaigns that you might wanna highlight related to how you're leveraging data and in your marketing campaigns?

Chad Hacker: One of the things that I believe in very strongly is that consumers look for brands that stand for something. And we have over the last couple of years really focused on establishing our portfolio of brands and in particular Botox Cosmetic as a ethical responsible brand that gives back. One of the things that I find most impressive about our company is how we think about giving to the community and really building loyalty with consumers. And one of the things that we've most recently done is partnered with a company called IFundWomen. And women receive a very, very small percentage of VC funding when trying to start their companies. And women of color receive even less. And so when we partnered with IFundWomen, we had over 6500 applications from female entrepreneurs that were looking for grants to help start their business. And we had the task, the challenge if you will, of going through all of those applications and narrowing it down to 20 recipients that each received $25,000 grants from us.

Chad Hacker: And things like that I think will really help develop that loyalty from consumers that know that you're doing something. The other thing that has been a big passion of mine and something that we've been focused on is diversity. And if I'm being truthful, probably for the past 20 years, the aesthetics industry has largely marketed the products to White women. And I really wanted to change that. I wanted it to be inclusive. And so we started to identify what are some other opportunities, whether it be through the LGBTQ community or African American or Hispanic, but it wasn't enough to just take our existing content and go target these people. I wanted to do it in a very authentic way and let them tell their stories in their voices. So that's been a big area of focus for us.

Kailey Raymond: I love that. I mean, you're talking to a gay woman right now and so by telling me that you're contributing to the LGBTQ as well as female founders, I've been in the tech community for 10 years, those are things that perk my ears up. And you're also talking about customer marketing, leveraging customer voices and really speaking to people in a way that's personalized and tailored to them and building that really authentic relationship. Because at the end of the day, that's how you're gonna get somebody to care about you and trust you, is by speaking to them in a way that feels like it's real and like you're not being marketed to.

Chad Hacker: And speaking of female leaders, I just have to give a shout out to our leader, Carrie Strom, who is the global president of Aesthetics. And when you look at C-level suite, whether it be within PhRMA or any company, there's not a whole lot of diversity there. And so being led by a strong woman who understands the need to empower other women and lift up marginalized communities, we actually hosted a Pride fireside chat just two weeks ago. So it's refreshing to be a company that is being led by a strong, powerful woman.

Kailey Raymond: You know what's interesting, something that kind of keeps coming up on this show is the idea around how it starts internally. Like the culture and employee engagement that is a feedback loop out into your products and the way that your customers are perceiving your brand. And so if you have that ethos internally that you have those events that you're supporting for Pride, you know, anything else that you know is important to you at AbbVie Allergan, then you're probably gonna see that in your campaigns as well and consumers will be able to identify that and really understand that's something that you're actually focused on internally. So that feedback loop is really critical.

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Kailey Raymond: I am curious to learn if you have a brand, a company that you look to that you believe is doing it right in terms of customer engagement.

Chad Hacker: The first brand that comes to mind is Amazon. I think they have perfected personalization that every time I log in I am shown products that I actually want. And they, through the wealth of data that they have on consumers have done a really great job of being able to personalize the experience but also to create the loyalty, right, the convenience from it. Netflix is another one, they were a trailblazer and they have great sort of recommendation engine of programs that you might like. So those are a couple that come to mind.

Kailey Raymond: Yeah, definitely the trailblazers in terms of taking first party data, converting it into customer profiles, and then sharing an experience that is authentically you on your screen. They're the ones also that make the rest of the industry say, Okay, we gotta do that. [laughter], it's time for a change. Do you have any things that you're looking out on the horizon in terms of data marketing over the next six to 12 months?

Chad Hacker: I mean, I do think that I am focused a lot right now on future-proofing the business. And in some ways data is sort of the Wild Wild West right now. Lots of companies are starting to realize how valuable their data is, but there has not historically been this sort of transactional marketplace with non-traditional data companies of how do I leverage this data? And so I've really been focusing on what I'm calling data partnerships and how do we take the five million or six million user records that we have in our database and partner with the company and through an anonymized fashion enrich my first party data. So if I can give you these people, what else can you tell me about them? What shows are they going to, what tickets are they buying? Where do they live? What's their purchasing behavior? I think you're going to see in the very near future, lots of companies trying to figure out how to monetize their data in a way that protects privacy.

Chad Hacker: And we of course have an army of lawyers as Big Pharma does, and the first data partnership agreement took us a year and a half to actually ink out, but we did. And then we had a playbook, if you will, or a framework of how we could do this. So at this point now I've partnered with six or seven different companies, whether they be entertainment companies or lifestyle companies, fashion companies, and really focusing on enriching, my data. So that again, as we continue to lose data signals that we know more about our consumers and can therefore do better marketing.

Kailey Raymond: Very, very interesting. How are you matching those up with customer profiles?

Chad Hacker: So I'll spare you all of the details, but it goes into LiveRamp where it's anonymized and there's an ID, so it's not... Nobody knows that Chad Hacker purchased a ticket to set event. It is ID 12786 did this. And that's how we do that.

Kailey Raymond: Very interesting. I do ABM for our company. And so when you're talking about a lot of different signals, it's really important to be able to have a holistic view of who you're talking to and what they care about. And obviously need to make sure you're doing it in a consented and trusted and in a way that is abiding by every privacy law. But it is something where intent data comes from a lot of different sources. And it can come from a lot of different partners. So I love that. I love that you're thinking about enriching your databases. I haven't heard that use case. I have one last question for you before I let you off the hook today, Chad, if you were to give some folks any advice and steps or recommendations that you might have if somebody's looking to uplevel their consumer engagement tactics?

Chad Hacker: I think the best advice I could give is to be humble. I think a lot of marketers go in with this attitude or idea of I know what's right, I know we need to do X, Y, and Z. And to me, embracing humility and being able to say, I don't know, but I'm gonna let the data tell me, I think is probably what is going to make a difference between a marketer that is successful and not successful because the world is changing very fast and we have to acknowledge that we don't know exactly what's happening and be humble about it.

Kailey Raymond: I love that humility is key. Chad, thank you so much for being here. I learned a ton. Congrats on your conversion rates. Those are amazing and really appreciate the time.

Chad Hacker: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure and I will continue to listen to your podcast, so thank you.

Kailey Raymond: Appreciate it.